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New World Map Image, New Zealand

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Hi, i think we need a new world map image since there are actually more than 10,000 people of German descent in New Zealand- the real figure according to the New Zealand government is some 200,000.

"Medieval history" section needs an edit

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First paragraph, last two lines. "By the early 9th century AD, large parts of Europe were united under the rule of the Frankish leader Charlemagne, who expanded the Frankish empire in several directions including east of the Rhine, consolidating power over the Saxons and Frisians, and establishing the Carolingian Empire. Charlemagne was crowned emperor by Pope Leo I in 800."

Pope Leo I died in 461 CE, and did not crown Charlemagne. It should be Pope Leo III. HumanEater44 (talk) 14:24, 1 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

 Done @HumanEater44: Thank you. Rsk6400 (talk) 07:38, 18 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
So odd most of this article is about country history - not what is normally covered GA =Canadians or even Americans...scope all backwards. Moxy🍁 08:53, 25 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I think I wrote most of that medieval section, but I agree. I worked on that because that is where I could help, and it needed help, but I think in the end the article lacks much of interest in other sections. I think the editing dynamic has been difficult and unwelcoming for most editors, because there have been so many efforts to make this article all about German speakers and/or ethnic Germans in the US. But I hope that problem might also reduce if the article gets expended with more appropriate material.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 16:14, 25 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Phrasing

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I do believe the first half of the sentence in the article should be rephrased. My previous edit was undone, but if I may I'd like to explain my edit and add it back since the current phrasing is too cluttered. Firekong1 (talk) 17:53, 17 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Herodotus ...

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He mentions "Germani" in his Histories (as well as Danes and Sagartians). This pre-dates Caesar's writings. 2603:6080:21F0:7B30:3CBA:F893:1523:AF91 (talk) 17:59, 17 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Histories 1,125,4 mentions Γερμάνιοι (Germanioi) among Persian (sic) tribes. Doesn't seem relevant here. Rsk6400 (talk) 07:34, 18 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The subject of the article is ethnicity, not citizenship

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This article is about Germans as ethnicity not about citizens of Germany. Therefore the "infofox ethnicity" is directluy appropriate. Therefore thw worldwede map where germanl leve today is more than appropriate, Just like in Italians or Bulgarians. And vice versa: a picture of Reichstag has nothing to do with ethnicity, but relevant to the state. --Altenmann >talk 21:43, 25 March 2025 (UTC) P.S. The lede clearly says "Estimates on the total number of Germans in the world range from 100 to 150 million, most of whom live in Germany.[8]" --And the subject "Germans as citisens of Germany" is covered in Germany#Demographics, specifically in Demographics of Germany. Altenmann >talk 21:47, 25 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

As was stated here and the Wikipedia Reddit discussion about it "Briefly put, most Germans don’t consider people who‘s ancestors emigrated generations ago as German in any way.". So a group like German Americans are not considered Germans by the German population. That said there's many studies that use normal academic views on this. Moxy🍁 23:25, 25 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
This is not what this article says. It says about 100-150mln Germans worldwide. What is more, "many studies" say that ethnicity is to a major degree a self-identification, therefore German Americans don't care what an abstract "German population" or Reddit think and happily celebrate Oktoberfest, and the idea that German Americans are somehow no true Germans is insulting. --Altenmann >talk 00:12, 26 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with you but this is the problem you're having here. Moxy🍁 00:14, 26 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see a "problem" here; I have a disagreement to be resolved. My opinion is supported by the whole article text, and the lede and infobox are supposed to be article summary. --Altenmann >talk 00:18, 26 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
WP:RFC Moxy🍁 00:20, 26 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
When English speaking people around the world say "Germans" they are not normally referring to Austrians or Americans, at least in the 21st century. If we have to be worried about insulting people, the potential for being offended goes in several directions here.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 05:29, 26 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@Altenmann: WP follows reliable sources. Period. Rsk6400 (talk) 05:46, 26 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
They are saying we should follow the sources here already. Not sure why Germans are still struggling to resolve issues of race here on Wikipedia dispite all the sources. Moxy🍁 06:56, 26 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Could you clarify what you mean? Who are they? Which sources? What is the connection to race here? --Andrew Lancaster (talk) 12:32, 26 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
"WP follows reliable sources" -correct. Please read the lede: it speaks about germans as an ethnic group, not as citizens of Germany. And I am pretty much sure the article like this one does follow reliable sources. --Altenmann >talk 15:26, 26 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The opening paragraph which gives the definition does not mention ethnicity at all, which is a pandora's box of a word, but primarily "the natives or inhabitants of Germany". Nobody is saying it is purely about citizenship, or not about ethnicity at all, but the lead is not a source you should be citing in this discussion because IIRC it was written by the same editors you are apparently disagreeing with. At the moment the term ethnicity is mainly being mentioned to give historical background, from periods before there was a country called Germany. When the country came into being there was a slightly older idea about German ethnicity that influenced events, but it was changing and unclear already in that time. The discussion in the article about this history seems to still be creating misunderstandings, and possibly needs to be reduced. Instead of the medieval roots of German-ness it might be better to emphasize the beginnings of Germany as a modern country. Critical problems which confronted the self-conception of Germans were for example the status of "Germans" living in the Hapsburg empire, and the status of Jews living within Germany. In 21st century English there is no longer any serious proposal that Austrians are Germans, or that Jewish Germans are not real Germans. Indeed these are critically important points, that the article needs to be very clear about.
Let's go back to basics: many words have several meanings. On WP the article which gets the main term tends to reflect the most common way that a word is used in careful writing. When we are being careful, diaspora "Germans" are normally not just called "Germans". When two strangers meet and one says they are "German" then with no other information we know this means they are almost certainly a German citizen, not someone from Russia or the Midwest. If you look in the archives of this talk page you will see there have been various discussions about various types of sources as well. I don't think there is much doubt about this. --Andrew Lancaster (talk) 16:00, 26 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, disagreed. But I am not going to comment on your personal selective reading of the article and sources cited. although I surely could. I started RFC for a broader community to speak. --Altenmann >talk 16:14, 26 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

RFC: Should the article include the Infobox ethnic group

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The article content shows that the article is about Gernmans as an ethnicity, not as citizens of Germany alone. Therefore it is reasonable to place {{Infobox ethnic group}} with worldwide map of Germans, just like in Italians of Armenians. --Altenmann >talk 15:45, 26 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

!Votes

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  • Strongly disagree. This article is not about diaspora Germans. There are several other articles about the diaspora. You are also misreading the opening lines of this article, which define the topic. Furthermore, even on a diaspora article, these types of infobox maps are often in effect WP:SYNTH and WP:OR, because they combine many different types of "apple and pear" information. They all use different definitions of what constitutes a "German", and are sometimes based on extremely rough estimations. I am strongly opposed to infoboxes which become a back-door way to introduce original research and low quality blogging.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 16:07, 26 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support more Germans that claim ethnicity or heritage outside the country than there is inside. Germans have a proud heritage all over the world having one of the largest populations of Europeans in the world. Ethnic Germans are not only in Germany as defined by multiple sources in the article. There is an article about citizenship and this is not 1939.Moxy🍁 16:32, 26 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

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