Talk:Hermes

Winged sandals - meatpuppet confession

My dad 1Greenjack1 took this photo of Hermes winged sandals. I convinced him it would be good for Wikipedia but was too shy to add it to the article himself so I did it on his behalf. I believe this is considered meatpuppeting (which I explained to my boomer dad to his amusement) so I'm disclosing for fair play etc. jengod (talk) 21:38, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

His relationship to Odysseus

The article liberally refers to Odysseus as his great-grandson, in direct reference to the Odyssey. This feels very misinformative, since Autolycus, his grandfather, was first referred to as the son of Hermes by Ovid (likely after misreading the Odyssey, in which he blesses Autolycus for being a devoted follower). Referring to him as his grandson while discussing the Odyssey leads to the (VERY POPULAR) misconception that Hermes and Odysseus are relatives in the Odyssey, when they are not. Floreditor (talk) 15:42, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

In the article, this relationship is attributed to Apollodorus of Athens, not Ovid. If you can provide evidence from scholarly sources that Apollodorus was wrong, feel free to provide it.--Atlan (talk) 12:19, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

There is no wrong or right here (Odysseus is a mythological character), mythological stories often have several different versions. So Apollodorus has this relationship (apparently), and Ovid too (according to Floreditor), but in the Odyssey there is (again apparently) no mention of such a relationship, so when discussing the Odyssey it is misleading to state such a relationship. Paul August ☎ 14:42, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

Indeed, the Odyssey does describe a relationship between Hermes and Autolycus and it's not a blood relationship; Autolycus burns top-quality sacrifices to Hermes, so Hermes befriends him and grants Autolycus certain skill(s).[1] Our Autolycus article has a table showing Hermes as Autolycus's father according to Homer, uncited and with none of the article's direct citations of the Odyssey supporting it. The Apollodorus text is a little surprising; first Autolycus is Jason's grandfather, then Autolycus son of Hermes goes on the Argo with Jason - are they the same person?[2] Ah, the joys of primary sources! NebY (talk) 17:00, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

In the table in Hermes#Lovers, victims and children, we do cite "Scholia on Homer, Iliad, 10. 266" and "Eustathius on Homer, 804" for Autolycus being a child of Hermes. I hope those haven't been mistaken for the Iliad or Odyssey themselves. (As citations, those rather fail us; I wonder if they've been taken from some secondary source which should be cited as referencing thus.) NebY (talk) 18:40, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

“ If you can provide evidence from scholarly sources that Apollodorus was wrong” — as the other commenter mentioned, that isn’t how a mythology works. There is not “wrong” myths. All myths are equally correct and valid, just different sources.

In the context of the Odyssey it is very misleading to refer to them as being related. We should refer to characters based on the stories we are talking about, and not try to narrativize different, unrelated myths by linking them together.

What you are advocating for here is appealing to the lowest common denominator of mythology. Rather than saying “Autolycus has no father in the Odyssey” you think we should say “Autolycus’ father was Hermes” even though it wouldn’t be mentioned for another 1,000 years.

Calling him his great-grandson also leads to a misunderstanding of the Odyssey as a whole. Odysseus is not exceptional because he is related to a god, he is exceptional because he is a cunning hero, and favored by the gods. Hermes isn’t his grandpa, he’s his ally. Floreditor (talk) 02:35, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

I only used the term "wrong" because you said Hermes being related to Odysseus is a misconception. Indeed, you still seem to be arguing the statement is wrong even though you agree there is no right or wrong when it comes to mythical characters. That said, I do think you make a good point where sources contradict each other and how in this case that is not very well reflected in the article.--Atlan (talk) 03:04, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

I don't think Floreditor is suggesting there is any truth or falsity to the claim "Odysseus is the great-grandson of Hermes", just that the use of the phrase In the Odyssey, Hermes helps his great-grand son, the protagonist Odysseus... would be problematic, as it implies that Odysseus is the great-grandson of Hermes in the Odyssey, which is not the case. – Michael Aurel (talk) 06:11, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

As you say, Autolycus is not the son of Hermes in the Odyssey, and I've removed the mention of Odysseus as his great-grandson. – Michael Aurel (talk) 04:49, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

Thanks to Floreditor, for raising the issue, and to Michael Aurel, for addressing it. Paul August ☎ 13:30, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

Atlantiades as an epithet

Hello,

I'm unsure if citing "Atlantiades" as an epithet for Hermes is appropriate. I have looked at the source of this claim ( Encyclopedia of Greco-Roman Mythology) and found that the author doesn't cite any instances in which Atlantiades/Ατλαντιάδης.

I also found myself taking issue with other claims the author makes, such that Hermes is a fertility god (it is more accurate to label him as a pastoral god), and the claim that Maia is an embodiment of the Great Goddess from Minoan mythology, while presenting no argument or sources for this claim. Which made me question their claim that Hermes is referred to with the epithet of "Atlantiades".

Maia, Hermes' mother, is at times referenced described with the word "Ἀτλαντὶς", for example in Hesiod's Theogony on line 938:

Ζηνὶ δ᾽ ἄρ᾽ Ἀτλαντὶς Μαίη τέκε κύδιμον Ἑρμῆν, κήρυκ᾽ ἀθανάτων, ἱερὸν λέχος εἰσαναβᾶσα.

And Maia, the daughter of Atlas, bore to Zeus glorious Hermes, the herald of the deathless gods, for she went up into his holy bed.

"Ατλαντος" is also used to refer to Maia as the daughter of Atlas in the Homeric Hymn to Hermes:

Ἑρμῆν ἀείδω Κυλλήνιον, Ἀργειφόντην, Κυλλήνης μεδέοντα καὶ Ἀρκαδίης πολυμήλου,

I sing of Cyllenian Hermes, the Slayer of Argus, lord of Cyllene and Arcadia rich in flocks

The term is also used for used for Electra in Pseudo-Apollodorus, Bibliotheca 3. 112:

Ἠλέκτρας δὲ τῆς Ἄτλαντος καὶ Διὸς Ἰασίων καὶ Δάρδανος ἐγένοντο.

Electra, daughter of Atlas, had two sons, Iasion and Dardanus, by Zeus

As well as Calypso in Apollodorus, Epitome chapter 7 line 24:

ἐκεῖ δὲ ἀποδέχεται Καλυψὼ θυγάτηρ Ἄτλαντος

There Calypso, daughter of Atlas, received him

And for Merope in Apollodorus, Library book 1 chapter 9:

Σίσυφος δὲ ὁ Αἰόλου κτίσας Ἐφύραν τὴν νῦν λεγομένην Κόρινθον γαμεῖ Μερόπην τὴν Ἄτλαντος. ἐξ αὐτῶν παῖς γίνεται Γλαῦκος, ᾧ παῖς Βελλεροφόντης ἐξ Εὐρυμέδης ἐγεννήθη,

And Sisyphus, son of Aeolus, founded Ephyra, which is now called Corinth, and married Merope, daughter of Atlas. They had a son Glaucus, who had by Eurymede a son Bellerophon,

The epithet "Atlantiades" is used in Roman myth, but only to describe Hermaphroditus in Ovid, Metamorphoses 4. 28:

Perstat Atlantiades, sperataque gaudia nymphae denegat.

And yet the youth, descendant of great Atlas, not relents nor gives the Naiad joy.

I've been trying to hunt down an instance of the epithet being used for Hermes, but I am unable to find one. But, is it possible that I missed an instance where it is used. If that's the case, please let me know, but if there isn't one then I think the epithet should be removed from Hermes' page. Amanda0Was0Here (talk) 04:12, 3 April 2025 (UTC)

The only instance I can find of "Atlantiades" being used in reference to Hermes is Metamorphoses 8.627, though I notice Miller simply translates the term as "Atlas' grandson". The statement in the article includes "(Greek: Ατλαντιάδης)" behind the name, which is misleading if the name only appears in a Latin text, and this name doesn't seem important enough to have its own section. I'm also inclined to agree that the source cited there isn't the greatest. I don't think we're losing a whole lot by deleting that sentence. – Michael Aurel (talk) 11:37, 3 April 2025 (UTC)

I'd add only a generailisation that we should be very wary of confusing the terms poets occasionally use with religious epithets. The former may represent only metrical solutions or ingenious references that give passing pleasure and demonstrate the poet's inventiveness and erudition, but they don't show the terms were used in cult. I'd rather we left them out. NebY (talk) 12:53, 3 April 2025 (UTC)

As you write this, I so happen to come across this from Lucian – what do you know! – Michael Aurel (talk) 13:53, 3 April 2025 (UTC)

Oh thank you - that's made my day! And ἐμβρόντητοι ποιηταὶ is beautifully apposite. NebY (talk) 14:19, 3 April 2025 (UTC)

Nilsson, Vol. I as a source

Hello,

I am researching Hermes' epithets and I noticed that for a lot of epithets (for example: epimelios, ktenites, molossos, nomios, etc) use Nilsson, Vol. I as a source. I'm not against using Nilsson as a source (even if it's a secondary source) but the citation (Nilsson, Vol. I) is for the German version of the book "Geschichte der griechischen Religion", which makes checking the citation difficult because the text is in German.

Nilsson does a English translation of this novel called "A History of Greek Religion", but that's a short book, only having around 324 pages. So citation isn't applicable to the English version.

So I looked through the book myself, even though I can't speak or read German, and did my best to track down where the epithets actually appear in primary sources:

- ἐπιμήλιος: Epimelios/Epimelius, "Keeper of flocks" listed as meaning "taking care of animals" in the wiki. This epithet appears in Pausanias, Description of Greece 9.34.3:

Κορώνεια δὲ παρείχετο μὲν ἐς μνήμην ἐπὶ τῆς ἀγορᾶς Ἑρμοῦ βωμὸν Ἐπιμηλίου, τὸν δὲ ἀνέμων.

On the market-place of Coroneia I found two remarkable things, an altar of Hermes Epimelius （Keeper of flocks） and an altar of the winds.

—

- μηλοσσόος: Mēlossóos/Molossos: Savior of sheep. I don't know why this epithet is described as being "nursing small animals" in this wiki. "μῆλον" means "sheep" and "σόος" means "safe/protecting". It is because Nilsson claims that "Hermes is particularly concerned with the small livestock." ? Because I think Nilsson in this case was mistaken. Hermes isn't linked with any particular small livestock, he's mostly associated with cows, sheep, and other flock animals.

I was able to find a primary source that uses this epithet (took forever, though). It's from Greek Anthology, Volume I 6.334:

αὔλια καὶ Νυμφέων ἱερὸς πάγος, αἳ θ᾽ ὑπὸ πέτρῃ πίδακες, ἥ θ᾽ ὕδασιν γειτονέουσα πίτυς, καὶ σὺ τετραγλώχιν, μηλοσσόε, Μαιάδος Ἑρμᾶ, ὅς τε τὸν αἰγιβότην, Πάν, κατέχεις σκόπελον, ἵλαοι τὰ ψαιστὰ τό τε σκύφος ἔμπλεον οἴνης δέξασθ᾽, Αἰακίδεω δῶρα Νεοπτολέμου.

Caves and holy hill of the Nymphs, and springs at the rock's foot, and thou pine that standest by the water; thou square Hermes, son of Maia, guardian of the sheep, and thou, Pan, lord of the peak where the goats pasture, graciously receive these cakes and the cup full of wine, the gifts of Neoptolemus of the race of Aeacus.

(μηλοσσόος is in this form "μηλοσσόε")

—

- νόμιος: Nomios, "Of the pastures" or "Shepherd". I have no idea why this is listed as meaning "nursing small animals" in the wiki, again, Nilsson's claim doesn't hold much weight, and Nilsson doesn't claim that this epithet means "nursing small animals".

Nomios is actually a son of Hermes. Him, along with his brothers Agreus and Phorbas where aspects of Pan. But it is used to refer to Hermes. I found an instance in Aristophanes, Thesmophoriazusae 983:

Ἑρμῆν τε νόμιον ἄντομαι καὶ Πᾶνα καὶ Νύμφας φίλας ἐπιγελάσαι προθύμως 980ταῖς ἡμετέραισι χαρέντα χορείαις.

I also pray Hermes, the god of the shepherds, and Pan and the beloved Graces to bestow a benevolent smile upon our songs.

—

- Κτηνίτηι: ktenites "Herdsman" (this translation I'm a little less sure of. "κτῆνος" means beast or livestock, and in Hermes' case I'm choosing to believe it's going with the "livestock" meaning. and "ίτηι" is an ending that means "to/for". So it means "to/for the livestock" which kinda means Herdsman).

Though " taking care of horses, lions, dogs, etc" also works. This epithet isn't written about on page 506 though.

This epithet actually appears on inscription that can be found here: http://cgrn.ulg.ac.be/file/81/

The epithet can be found here on that same inscription:

καὶ τοῖς Ταργηλίοις φέρειν τῆι ὀγδόηι τυρείην τῶι Ἑρμῆι τῶι Κτηνίτηι καθό- τι καὶ τῆι Μυκάληι, καὶ ἐς τὴν ὑστεραίην

On the 13th of Taureon, bring (an offering) to the Nymphs, just like for Mykale, and on the Thargelia, on the 8th day, bring (an offering of) cheese to Hermes Ktenites, just as for Mykale, and on the following day (of the Thargelia), (10) the one who has sworn an oath is to bring (an offering of) cheese to Maiander, just like for the other (gods).

—

- ἀγήτωρ: Agetor "leader, ruler". I'm not sure why this epithet is described as "god of travellers" in the wiki, as this epithet means "leader" or "ruler", and was most commonly used for Zeus. But it has been used for Hermes, for example, in Pausanias, Description of Greece 8.31.7.

—

- ἡγεμόνιος: hegemonios “guiding," "leading".

Appears in Aristophanes, Plutus line 1159:

Καρίων δόλιον; ἥκιστά γε: οὐ γὰρ δόλου νῦν ἔργον, ἀλλ᾽ ἁπλῶν τρόπων.

Ἑρμῆς ἀλλ᾽ ἡγεμόνιον.

Καρίων ἀλλ᾽ ὁ θεὸς ἤδη βλέπει, 0ὥσθ᾽ ἡγεμόνος οὐδὲν δεησόμεσθ᾽ ἔτι.

Cario

No, no, intrigues are forbidden; we believe in good faith.

Hermes

I will work for you as a guide.

Cario

But the god sees clearly now, so we no longer want a guide.

(ἡγεμόνιος is in the form of ἡγεμόνιον)

—

- πομπός: pompós “Guide” (in relation to the Underworld). It’s used in Aeschylus, Persians 626:

βασίλεια γύναι, πρέσβος Πέρσαις, σύ τε πέμπε χοὰς θαλάμους ὑπὸ γῆς, 625ἡμεῖς θ᾽ ὕμνοις αἰτησόμεθα φθιμένων πομποὺς εὔφρονας εἶναι κατὰ γαίας. ἀλλά, χθόνιοι δαίμονες ἁγνοί, Γῆ τε καὶ Ἑρμῆ, βασιλεῦ τ᾽ ἐνέρων, 630πέμψατ᾽ ἔνερθεν ψυχὴν ἐς φῶς: εἰ γάρ τι κακῶν ἄκος οἶδε πλέον, μόνος ἂν θνητῶν πέρας εἴποι.

Royal lady, august queen of the Persians, pour these libations down to the chambers of the earth, while we, in solemn chant, beseech the guides of the dead beneath the earth to be gracious to our prayers.

O holy divinities of the nether world, Earth and Hermes, and you, Lord of the dead, send up to the light the spirit from below; for if, beyond our prayers, he knows any further remedy for our distress, he alone of mortals can declare how to bring it to accomplishment.

(πομπός is in its “πομποὺς” form)

—

- πομπαῖς: pompaîs “conductor” (in relation to the Underworld). I can’t find any reference of this being an epithet for Hermes? It is getting rather late, so it’s possible that I missed it. But I really, really looked around and I can’t find it being used anywhere in relation to Hermes.

—

Again, I’m not that familiar with Wikipedia sources, so I’m unsure if Nilsson is an appropriate source. But I’m concerned that people looking for sources to Hermes’ epithets might get frustrated when they find Nilsson’s work to only be in German. It took a while for me to translate the handful of pages I translated. So while I’m not completely against the notion of using Nilsson, I also propose that it might be easier for people to find where the epithet is used if there’s a citation tracing back to where it’s used? (Especially as Nilsson doesn’t cite his sources on where he found a lot of his epithets). Amanda0Was0Here (talk) 13:23, 5 April 2025 (UTC)